Fwd: [tradicao-catolica] Re: Liturgia dos Pré-Santificados

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De: "Juliana Fragetti R. Lima" <juliana.fragetti@gmail.com>
Data: 1 de abril de 2013 14:48:30 BRT
Para: tradicao-catolica@yahoogroups.com
Assunto: Re: [tradicao-catolica] Re: Liturgia dos Pré-Santificados
Responder A: tradicao-catolica@yahoogroups.com

Transubstanciação durante a ablução????

:o
Em 01/04/2013 14:45, "Luiz Fernando" <luizfsf2@gmail.com> escreveu:

**

Pax Cristi!

A respeito da dúvida que levantei sobre a transubstanciação do vinho por

intinção, encontrei o texto abaixo em um forum. Trata-se de uma resposta de

um padre ortodoxo. Interessante ele citar S. Beda.

Seguindo o raciocínio, podemos dizer que na missa tridentina, durante a

ablução com o vinho, ocorre também a transubstanciação pelo método

semelhante da intinção?

AMDG,

LF

==============================================================

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=323389

fatheraugustine

A very ancient tradition regards one species to become consecrated by

virtue of coming into contact with the other species. This was the case in

the Latin Church during the pre-sanctified Mass of Good Friday, and at

other times (like last rites). I believe it is St. Bede the Venerable (it's

one of the Anglo-Celtic saints) who records that a certain Irish Saint,

when he was going to administer Communion to the dying, had the Body of

Christ brought to him and placed it in a chalice of normal wine. He then

communed the dying man with both Species (the norm before Trent). I.e., the

consecrated Host was mingled in wine, and by virtue of the intinction, the

wine is considered to receive consecration and become our Lord's Blood.

I'm not Roman Catholic (I'm Orthodox), so rules may have changed since

Trent. But, before Trent - and still, in the Orthodox Church (whose

sacraments Rome now recognizes as valid) - the wine would be considered

consecrated when the consecrated host was intincted.

That isn't to say that the norm is to consecrate both when celebrating a

normal Mass. And, any attentive priest should definitely consecrate both in

such a Mass. And, if he realizes that he failed to consecrate the wine at

some point before the intinction, he should definitely return to the words

of consecration over the wine. Someone mentioned that a parish priest did

this under similar circumstances, and that is certainly what we Orthodox

would do, especially if the Body had not yet been inticted in the chalice.

The old Roman Mass used to involve an intiction of the host into the

chalice near the "Agnus Dei." I'm assuming it still does?

The Orthodox Church regularly celebrates "Presanctified Liturgy" throughout

the season of Lent. The "Presanctified Liturgy" is a Mass, wherein

previously consecrated elements of the Body of Christ are distributed

instead of consecrating the Body again. It is understood that when the Body

is placed in the chalice at such a pre-sanctified Mass, the wine in the

chalice becomes the Blood of Christ without any words of consecration. Some

Orthodox Churches will drip a few drops of Christ's Blood onto the Body

when consecrating it beforehand, just "to be sure" that some of the Blood

of Christ is present. But some would also point out that these drops of

Blood have dried by the time the Body is distributed three days later (on

Wednesday Evening's Mass). The same thing was done in the Latin Church on

Good Friday in the past. Perhaps it is still done; I don't know enough

about Latin liturgy after the reformations of Trent or Vatican II.

So, in short: while Trent may have changed the canonical procedures in the

Latin Church on this matter, ancient Tradition holds that whenever one

element is brought into contact with the other with the clear goal of

consecrating it and distributing Communion, it is ipso facto consecrated.

One should follow the discipline of one's rite - but, with the confidence

that if a small, unitentional error such as this has been made, all that

has been violated is a matter of proper ritual procedure; the Tradition

would still hold the wine to become consecrated by virtue of the

intinction. This was the procedure in the Latin Church in a few

circumstances, especially the presanctified Mass of Good Friday, and is

still the custom in the Orthodox Church (and Eastern Catholic churches)

during every Wednesday and Friday of Lent. So, don't worry! Accidents like

this happen.

Of course, I'm not saying that just because the wine is consecrated by

coming into contact with the Body, one should omit the proper form of Mass

under normal circumstances. Priests should always strive to perform the

services correctly and with attentive devotion.

Em 29 de março de 2013 14:08, Luiz Fernando <luizfsf@ig.com.br> escreveu:

Pax Christi!

Assisti hoje pela manhã mais uma vez a liturgia maronita chamada "A Marca

do Cálice". Nessa liturgia a hóstia consagrada ontem (quinta-feira santa)

é imersa no cálice com vinho não consagrado, consagrando-o.

Não tinha até então reparado nesse detalhe nos outros anos: a

transubstanciação do vinho ocorre simplesmente pelo contato com a hóstia

consagrada (explicação do próprio padre). Há também a epiclese e a

distribuição da comunhão em 2 espécies, como é de costume na missa

maronita, mas não há as palavras da consagração.

Alguém pode aprofundar o tema e dizer o porque isso ocorre?

Se a transubstanciação ocorre apenas pelas palavras da consagração e não

durante a epiclese, como ocorre a transubstanciação nesse rito maronita?

AMDG,

--

Luiz Fernando

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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